Your Stories: A.S., Class of 2005
A.S., our first brave soul, is a 2005 graduate from a southern law school. This story is reposted here with slight modifications for clarity and privacy. These are real stories from the field that are not meant to be politically or grammatically correct; they only promise to be honest and insightful. If you are interested, I will be conducting a Q&A with A.S. sometime in the near future.
Hi Ethan,
I graduated from a private southern university with a degree in history and a minor in sociology. Most of my fraternity brothers were all going to some sort of graduate school. I am not a doctor, and wasn’t sure that I wanted to be a teacher, so I felt that law school was the next best option. Sure enough, I grabbed a commercial rankings guide from the campus bookstore and immediately started to flip through the guide for information on each school. I was immediately impressed with the published salaries. Even the lower tier schools had average median salaries of at least $60k a year.
I applied to several schools and ended up going to the public university in my home state. My tuition was low and was further reduced by a partial scholarship. After doing the math, I decided that based on the potential salary upon graduation, taking out loans to pay for the full cost of law school tuition and housing would be a no brainer. I was almost convinced that I literally couldn’t afford NOT to go to law school if I were afforded the opportunity.
I was almost convinced that I literally couldn’t afford NOT to go to law school if I were afforded the opportunity.
I was not at the top of my class. B’s and C’s were standard affairs, and frustration and fatigue were my best friends. At the end of my first year, I attempted to find a summer internship in New York City, since I had other reasons for being there. I did finally find a position with a solo practitioner who was very good to me. Only after the program ended did he explain that EVEN IF I were the number one student in my class, that class was still a state university in the south. Being number one would only serve to put me in the upper league of thousands of other law graduates from “better” schools. However, as you may know, most of the first year courses are taught from the same books, by some really great teachers, whether they’re at a Ivy League school, or mountain state, or anywhere in between. I guess what I am saying is that I am not sure that a first year law student from one school could know a whole lot more (or different things) than a similar student from another school. Yet somehow they are not equals in anyone’s view in the job market.
Only after the program ended did he explain that EVEN IF I were the number one student in my class, that class was still a state university in the south. Being number one would only serve to put me in the upper league of thousands of other law graduates from “better” schools.
My private undergraduate school had students employed all over the world and in a myriad of fields. Maybe I was naive, but law school was not the same. The great majority of my classmates work only in my home state, for better or worse. I, along with three other friends, tried to take our educations out into the world, and found some harsh realities, mainly regionalism. We had major loans to pay, and were living in another state. A state that had firms of 25 other lawyers, all of whom were from “domestic” law schools. We were not part of that club, and had to fight our way into them, with varying success. I had $60k in student loans and no income.
Then I failed the bar exam. I was completely unprepared for it, and partial blame may be assigned to the fact that my law school didn’t even offer courses in 40% of the essay topics tested in the other state. Those statistics I looked at that suggested I could take my law degree anywhere I wanted seemed really more like outliers, explainable by some other means.
When I did pass, my career counselor was consulted, and was literally no help at all. She had just started to put the whole process online, as her predecessor utilized the system of having a rolodex in her office to consult when students asked her for jobs. She forwarded me a few emails for positions that I was not qualified for, and knew when I applied that I would have little chance in hell of landing. So much for a life of well compensated hard work post-law school.
A friend of mine who went to an Ivy League school for undergrad and a highly ranked private school for law school encountered a similar situation. He had top grades at a top tier law school and undergrad, and when he came home to his home state in the south, he couldn’t find a job to save his life. He is now a legal assistant working for 10 dollars an hour at a two-man firm, and has joined a military program for lack of a better opportunity. They took one look at his resume, and thought, “well educated, too bad he didn’t go to a local law school . . .next.”
I felt like I was scammed into going to law school. I know at least two other grads (one of whom is employed at a regional firm, and the other is also unemployed) who used the same word “scammed” when talking about their decision to go to law school in retrospect. When I signed up for law school, nothing suggested that without being an over achiever, that I would basically be getting a degree that would allow me to practice in my home state, possibly for a regional firm, more commonly with a small office in a crappy city handling trivial divorce cases.
I’m moving on from it, and try not to dwell, but I definitely feel cheated and scammed into a decision based on a whole lot of smoke and mirrors. I look at my classmates from undergrad and their various successes and can’t help but wonder what the opportunity cost of my enrollment in law school was, besides the crushing debt that is hanging over my head in “unemployment deferment” like the sword of Damocles.
A.S.
Southern Region
Class of 2005
I have a lot of sympathy for people scammed by law school because a lot people got screwed, but I have to be honest, your story doesn’t really resonate with me. It’s apparent that you went to law school for all the wrong reasons, i.e., nothing better to do and you thought it would make you a lot of money. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s not the legal education system that misled you; you simply just failed to inquire what the practice of law is really about.
Most egregiously, the tone of your post strongly implies that you look down on attorneys who practice in “a crappy city handling trivial divorce cases.” I mean really, would it be possible to be more of a jerk? Since when are divorce cases trivial? I promise you a divorce proceeding is not trivial to the client. In addition, but people who live in “crappy” towns need legal representation too. I know, shocking, right?
And with you arrogant and immature attitude, is it really any surprise that law firms might be reluctant to hire you?
You represent what is wrong with some many young lawyers. They either want to represent Goldman Sachs while rolling with bottles and models, or not be a lawyer at all. I want to law school and became an attorney because I truly enjoy advocating on behalf of clients, even clients I don’t really like. I didn’t land in biglaw, and trust me, I won’t be retiring any time soon. But I make enough to pay loans, save some money, and live a decent life style. Most important, I actually like what I do even if my clients are Fortune 500 companies.
This is an open forum for everyone to share his or her honest thoughts. I understand this commentator’s position, however, I want to make the following point as it relates to my hunger strike and the reason I am risking my professional and physical health. Regardless of which law school you attend, or your reasons for doing so, law schools have an underlying obligation to do certain things to ensure your success. Real people are experiencing real suffering for putting their faith in an entity they trusted to guide them through an industry they could not enter in any other way. I don’t intend to address the commentator’s concerns, only the ones stated in my Official Notice, which are the only ones I can do anything about. I advise everyone else (members of the legal community) to do their part for the common good of all of us.
“Being the change that I want to see …”
Ethan Haines
J.D. Class Representative
“It’s apparent that you went to law school for all the wrong reasons, i.e., nothing better to do and you thought it would make you a lot of money.”
Serious question – is it wrong to want to make a living? Is it wrong to want to provide for yourself and your family (and hopefully future generations)?
While I personally don’t think that someone who has “nothing better to do” is proffering a good reason to justify law school and a legal career, I defintely think that financial security (and prosperity) IS a valid reason.
Importantly, I don’t think most people would be as pissed off about the lack of job opportunities post-law school if law school itself (1) was inexpensive and (2) it actually taught you how to be a lawyer (not just “how to think like a lawyer” – a nebulous concept that is simply a load of bullshit).
Once there is transparency and factually correct employment information, law schools will be brought to their knees. I am quite confident that once young college graduates are given the true financial picture of pay scales/salaries within the legal industry, law school applications will plummet and law schools will be forced to change their outdated financial and pedagogical models.
@Ethan. Law schools cannot ensure your success. They can offer classes, offer professors who are able to teach (or not), offer programs that will help you understand where your interests lie (like moot court, etc.) They cannot “ensure” your success. That thinking is a major problem. It is and was YOUR education, and you need to take some responsibility for it.
@elcharanguista. Deciding to go to law school *only* for money is creating a recipe for failure. Only a very small sliver of attorneys will ever make $180,000 to start. That is not difficult to discover. In fact, within a few weeks at my law school everyone was abuzz about where you needed to be in your class to work at those firms. That left 98% of law school to figure out if that was even possible in your future. A guy getting Bs and Cs at a presumably not great school (although UVa, UNC, and Texas are all great Southern state schools . . .) and failing the bar perhaps should have been more realistic about who would pay him what.
Hi A.S.,
Thank you for sharing your story, and I am truly sorry to hear about your law school experience. I am neither a lawyer, a law student or involved in a legal career, but your feelings of remorse, regret, and anger, are being heard. You did not indicate whether you are currently working and if so, whether it is law-related. Regardless, I encourage you to continue searching for the career you desire.
Other than the existing ‘system’ that can either be roadblocks or an aid (such as your alma mater and geographic region), I wonder out loud the opportunities that may exist for you to utilize your JD without being a practicing attorney in a courtroom setting.
Perhaps seek out nonprofit organizations who might be happy to have a lawyer who can assist with ANY legal aspect if they are not able to afford expensive legal help from a firm? Or how about mentoring students who might be interested in a law career? Or serving as a tutor for LSAT classes? If none of these are of interest, how about working as a consultant? Do you have a passion in a specific field – environment? corporate law? the arts? travel? I encourage you to be creative and think of ways to be in involved in that specific industry, without being a lawyer (who knows if your position may evolve and cross over to something that is related to law).
You most certainly have legal knowledge that an ordinary civilian/citizen might not, and there are undoubtedly individuals/organizations out there who can benefit from it. I’m a New Yorker involved in the nonprofit and social entrepreneurship sector, so I come across individuals who are creating social change every day through their knowledge, experience, and determination. I do not aspire to do what they do, yet they serve as a motivation and aspiration for me to do something bigger and better in life. I trust that you too have untapped sources of inspiration.
Please seek out the stories of law student-turned-[insert prominent figure, successful individual, role model]. Those stories of success are out there! I encourage you to keep your head up (if you are under 40, you’re young, at least in NYC!), so there are many opportunities, and it is never too late. Never stop networking and tapping into your contacts — law school, undergrad, fraternity. It is admirable through the efforts of this website that you are taking a stand against the ‘existing system’, but please also think about how you will beat it. With a law degree under your belt, I hope you look only forward to the great things that can come (and regarding that student loan, you’re faring better than the average American, plus you have a law degree to explain for it).
Best of luck, and thank you again for sharing your story.
I have a similar story. I went to the best school that I was accepted into, with the best scholarship. I had no idea that everyone from that school fed into three cities EXCLUSIVELY–none of which I wanted to live in. When I realized that my school had no connections to NYC, my ultimate destination, I got a clerkship through nepotism. My father worked for the right people at the time. I’ve been fighting tooth and nail to stay in the market ever since… about 10 years ago. Before the market really came to a standstill, I finally got into BigLaw–also through connections. But, I was laid off. Now I blog. I have just recently, according to my student loan bills, stopped paying the interest. Yes. It took that long. Another 20 years and I’ll have this monkey off my back. But it’s amazing that I have forked over $700 a month since graduation and only managed to get that far… and this is which substantial scholarships. The other scam is that you can only consolidate once. And my one time was when interest rates were high. Oh well. I wish I never went. Anyways, I’ve added you to my blogroll and I’m fully in support of your battle. I hope others that are enrolled follow suit. Students, especially 22 and under year-olds, are the most vulnerable of all of our citizens and Law Schools need to be held accountable for their shortcomings and misinformation.
I want to thank the Ethan for letting me share my honest thoughts. Although I don’t agree with his tactics, I think he raises some good arguments and I hope he is successful in reforming the legal education system.
But again, I must also respectfully disagree with Angel the Lawyer. It seems you regret law school because you simply don’t like being a lawyer, not because you couldn’t find opportunities. That is understandable, although distinct from the plight of many attorneys who graduate and never have an opportunity to practice law. You were able to complete a clerkship and then work in Biglaw for a while, opportunities most lawyers never get. WIth that experience, I find it hard to believe you can’t find a legal job, particularly in a secondary market. I know a number attorneys who were laid off from Biglaw within a year of graduating. Many were able to land jobs in midsize firms in middle markets where they had some connection too even though they weren’t from there.
I understand that you probably want to be in NYC, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices in order to be successful. Upon graduating, I had my sights set on practicing in a particular jurisdiction that is just as competitive as NYC. I started off there at a small, shit law firm with the hopes of moving on to bigger and better things. After a few years of trying, I decided to move to a small market where i had family connections (I wasn’t from there) and landed a job with a reputable midsize firm. I now make decent money, particularly because I live in a low cost of living area. I don’t get to call myself a New Yorker, but who cares?
This point relates to my previous post. Not everyone can work at Cravath and represent Goldman Sachs. The problem I have with so many young attorneys is that their attitude is Big city/Biglaw or nothing at all. It’s akin to a journalism student saying I want to be a journalist, but only if I can work at the NYT or the WSJ. If you truly have a passion for the profession, you would be content working for the Des Moines Register, even if it was not your dream journalism job.
The point is that sometimes we don’t reach our ultimate goals. I know I didn’t. But if you are open to sacrifice are different opportunities, there is a strong possibility that you can land in a good place, even if it is not your dream spot. I feel like most attorneys don’t want to accept this.
How long ago did you graduate from law school? What you need to understand is that things are drastically different from even 10 years ago or so.
I graduated from a ~30 ranked school in the top half of my class a few months ago. I didn’t do stellar, but I didn’t do too poorly. When I was looking for a summer associate position, I sent out more than 350 resumes (to ~10 different cities, some back home in the Midwest), interviewed with about 35 different firms, had 8 call-backs, and had ONE offer. ONE! I could not find a better position and started this past week. It pays 50K/year, but is not at all the type of law I had wanted to practice, and the exit options are virtually non-existent.
And guess what? I am doing much better than most of my former classmates. There are ~150 people in my class, and I knew just about every one of them. Around 65% of my class had NOTHING lined up for post-graduation. Nada, zilch, and not even any leads. Most of them could not even get interviews. And most of these folks had 100K+ in student loans.
Simply put, it is much more difficult to even get a job in “shit-law” today. You can’t work your way up the ladder if you can’t even get to the first rung my friend. That is the problem facing today’s generation of lawyers. They simply cannot find a job in the legal industry, and much less in the field they would like to practice.
Law school really is a scam. I wish it wasn’t, but it is and big reform needs to happen. Fast.
Thank you for your comment, this is the reason I do this. I am a 2009 graduate. I am attempting to make that very point to law school administrators with this hunger strike – regarding career counseling reform – this is a new day and time. I want them to be able to confidently say that their career counseling (career planning and training) methods are current and effective in today’s market.
Ethan
Hello all,
I am actually a bit shocked by a number of these posts. I am not a lawyer, but am completing a PhD at a major state university in the west. As with law, he job market in my field has dried up in recent years. During fatter years, 65% of the people from grad program were lucky enough to find a job in the field (which was well above the average). More recently that number has dropped. The changing economy has made finding a job more difficult to be sure, but even in good times it was no sure thing.
One of the points that seems to be missed here is that success in grad/law school is necessary for prime positions. One simply cannot finish outside of the top 10% and hope to find a good job, or outside the top 50% and expect to find a job at all. Admission to, and even graduate from, a given program is simply not enough. Being accepted to grad/law school is an accomplishment, but only one that gives you an opportunity to compete at the next level.
The competitive nature of higher ed and the workplace can be killer, especially with the cost of education. And, as some have noted, it can be even worse with a spouse or family to think about. My wife and I (she recently finished her MD) have massive loans to pay back and two small children to support. We have been both been lucky to secure good jobs, but not in the same city. So, for the time being, we have a commuter marriage. But. . . This is often the cost of success. And I think people have to being asking themselves “can I do what is necessary to succeed?” If you can’t, someone else will and they will earn the job that you might have wanted.
Maybe this all sounds cold, but I think it’s reality. Would it be nice if schools changed their practices? Sure. Is it their fault you are not where you dreamed of being at this point? No.
Common Sense,
Are you kidding me? I love being a lawyer. I’m a kick ass lawyer. I opened my own office since I gave up on finding a job… 700 resumes later. Just because you don’t want to work for free or a livable wage, does not mean that you don’t enjoy what you do! We pay our president to govern, should that be a labor of love as well. That was a huge assumption. I have no regrets about what I do. I just wish that I knew how much it would pay because I would not have assumed a decent ROI. Where do you get off saying that? I have so much pride from representing people in “trivial” divorces, you have no idea. Screw you.
And it shouldn’t be difficult to get into a jurisdiction of your choice. I have investments here and friends and family. And generally, the NYC market pays much more than other areas. So don’t knock my decision to have a say on where I want to live and work.
By way common sense, if you’re married or in a relationship, would you break it off for a better job in a different market. I have a life and that shouldn’t be in conflict with my career. NYC may be tough, but I am convinced it’s one of the few places where a minority female MAY get a fair shake. I have a feeling des moines wouldn’t welcome me with open arms.
Angel,
I didn’t mean to suggest that you don’t want to be a lawyer. I guess I misinterpreted your statement about regretting having gone to law school. I apologize.
However, I still must respectfully disagree with the rest of your comment. Some jurisdictions are more difficult and more competitive to find employment in compared to others. NYC happens to be one of them. Yes, it does pay more. Of course, that is probably one of the reasons why it is more competitive. Oddly, I have a higher net worth (at least at a young age) than my Biglaw friends in NYC because, even though they make more than me, I got a lot more bang for my buck. Funny how that works out.
Also, and this will be harsh but justified, your comment that minority women can’t get a fair shake in places like Des Moines reeks of elitism. Frankly, it confirms my initial suspicion that you might be a snob. I know plenty of minority attorneys (male and female) who are successful in small and midsize cities all over the country, including the South. I also live with a physical disability, and these lawyers in hickville somehow gave me a fair shake. So your “feeling” that you wouldn’t be welcome in smaller cities is just wrong.
Finally, your comment that your life shouldn’t have to conflict with your career is also naive. We can’t always have our cake and eat it too. Often times, there are opportunities out there for people who are willing to sacrifice. I did. I moved away from a city where my immediate family and most of my friends lived. My significant other did too. In the end, we decided that me finding a job that would lead to financial security was more important than were we lived. I still see my family and friends on a regular basis even though we live far apart.. But the point is, sometimes you have to make a choice in life. Like I said, not everyone can work in NYC. This is not unique to the legal profession. A friend in the IT field just had to make the choice of taking a promotion and moving across the country or staying where he is and not getting the promotion and pay raise. He made the same decision I did.
To the previous commenter, I am a recent graduate too, only a few years out from a T25 school, where i graduated towards the top of the class. I know how you feel, I was in your situation at one point too, although it took me a year to find my first job. As much as my first job was shit law, paid less than you are earning, and my boss was a jerk, it was a great experience because I was actually learning how to practice law.
Read C. Hitchen’s cancer column from a couple of days ago, then search out Limbaugh’s show from yesterday where he declares life flat out “isn’t fair.”
If you were mislead by admissions or other administrative personel, then sue them, you moron.
Looks like your education didn’t teach you much, which actually helps your case against your law school.
“Common Sense” must be reading a bit too much Glenn Beck, what with those comments on elitist minorities and lazy unemployed people.
I hope the schools tell the truth. I went to a T14. Half the class graduated without a job (any job, not counting part time work at the school library).
The schools are lying to a lot of people. When we get in these debates, they always turn into moralizing sermons from the other side. They never attack us on the facts. Instead they say we are spoiled whiners.
Spending decades paying back loans for a worthless education is insane. That’s an entire life gone to pieces. I don’t even need to mention the toll that takes on family life (or lack of it).
Raul -
I never said anyone was lazy, and I don’t think minorities in particular are elitist. I do, however, think that someone who genuinely believes that there only a few places, including NYC, where a minority women can get fair shake is elitist. I doesn’t matter if that person is male/female or white/black/brown/blue/green/yellow, etc. To prejudge an entire group of people (i.e., those who live in small and mid-size towns) is elitist. Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, I have a physical disability which is very noticeable. My significant other is an URM. So I’m no stranger to discrimination.
My point was, and still is, that sometimes you need to make a sacrifice. I have a sympathy for people who can’t find jobs. I graduated a few years ago and the market wasn’t much better. I was unemployed for a long time, so I know how it feels. It’s horrible. However, I have no sympathy for people who refuse to consider jobs outside of a certain city. We can’t always get what we want, and sometimes that means living in Omaha instead of NYC. I had to make a decision – live in the city that I always wanted to live in, or move to a less desirable “town” and be able to make a living as a lawyer to allow me to support a family in the future.
It’s called life. Welcome to it.
And since you asked, I’m no fan of Glenn Beck. Honestly, I have never watched or listened to him, so I have no idea why he is loved/hated so much. Nor do I care to, because what Glenn Beck says has no impact on my life or my ability to support my family.
“It’s called life. Welcome to it.”
That’s elitist.
Really. You’re pathetic. What does “elitist” really even mean at this point? Is it just a stock insult now?
If it’s elitist to be wrong about how much prejudice exists in parts of the country with very few minorities, then it’s elitist to assume that, whatever the economy, the blame for struggling to find work has to be laid on each person’s shoulders because it could be solved easily, if just they had a bit more of that American fighting spirit and if they stopped thinking that this simple little problem they have is so difficult. Yes, just do the most obvious thing, and it will definitely work.
It’s incredibly insulting – both to Omaha and those who are unemployed – to say [stuff] like “I have no sympathy for people who refuse to consider jobs outside of a certain city” and “We can’t always get what we want, and sometimes that means living in Omaha.” Seriously, who do you think you are to have so cornered the market on the real world? No one is unemployed because they’re obstinate, repugnantly provincial and/or reverse-bigoted, if that’s what you think.
Sometimes people can’t find work because they get institutionally raked over the coals. There is such a thing as a legitimate tough position, which really can’t be solved by the kind of “personal responsibility conservatism” that your comments seem to adhere to. (I don’t know if you intend that, but I’d be shocked if you’re not fairly red.) The fact is that I would love to work in Omaha. Do you know why? Because I would love to work. Do you think I enjoy collection agency calls several times a day? Do you think I like seeing a credit score that can’t be fixed? And do you think I would say “No” to a job that could salvage something of a future for me just because it was in the middle of the country? Man, [forget] you. They won’t hire me. Because I don’t have the money to get to Omaha first of all, or write the bar exam there, and they can just hire a local candidate who has family and will stay there long-term, whereas I want to live near my family. I’ve tried countless similar places. It’s true everywhere. You need to be local, and even if I were local, I can’t afford a lot of the ways I’ve thought of to just “pick myself up like a good American patriot”.
I lived in a few small and provincial towns. Trust me, a minority woman has an uphill battle there. And I should ask my boyfriend who has a decent job to move to a small town so that I can make a buck. He will make less. That’s too much of a sacrifice. Maybe if I were the man, and he was a secretary… that would be an option. Not here. I’m not you.
Fair enough. You decided to stay in NYC, in part, because of your significant other and his job. I respect that, and I know a lot of people who have made similar decisions. It’s never easy facing a choice between relocating for a better career opportunity or staying put for a relationship.
With that said, I fail to see how your choice to remain in arguably the most competitive market in the country for personal reasons — where you admit that you were only able find work through nepotism — has anything to do with law schools being “held accountable for their shortcomings and misinformation.” Did your law school guarantee you a job in NYC? To sound like a broken record, having to choose where to live based on a relationship or a career opportunity is not unique to legal profession.
To elcaranguista, I graduated in 2007, when the market was already in decline, although admittedly, not as bad as it is today. However, I don’t have to put myself in your shoes because I was in your shoes. I took me over a year after graduating to land my first, full time job. I did contract work for about two months during that 13 month period. If anything, you’re in better shoes than I was when I graduated. As for your question, in all honesty, I don’t agree. I know the job market is tough, but I believe there are opportunities out there for people willing to compromise. The opportunities won’t be the most glamorous job in the most glamorous city, but there are jobs out there. I know a number of 2009/2010 grads who have been able to secure work. As for upward mobility, the legal profession is a skill. If you are good at it, there is room for upward mobility. A good friend was working for a shit PI solo practitioner making FAR LESS than you are making. After two years, a reputable midsize firm hired him after interacting with him in court and depositions. This was in 2008.
And Sovereign Defaulting on Debt, I never said — nor can you reasonably interpret my posts — that fault for “struggling to find work has to be laid on each person’s shoulders.” Again, I was unemployed for a long time as a disabled person. I know how it feels and recognize, probably better than most, that bad things happen to well-intentioned and hardworking people.
My point, in case it wasn’t clear, was that I have no sympathy for people who are unwilling to make sacrifices in order to find employment. I had sacrifice and move away from my family. Why shouldn’t other people have to do the same thing, if necessary? The problem I have with so many in our generation (I’m assuming we’re close in age) is that they think they’re entitled to some dream job in some dream city without having to work incredibly hard for that dream job. This is what A.S.’ story represents (e.g., “When I signed up for law school, nothing suggested that without being an over achiever, that I would basically be getting a degree that would allow me to practice in my home state, possibly for a regional firm, more commonly with a small office in a crappy city handling trivial divorce cases”).
Does that make me red?
Angel,
I obviously can’t speak to your experiences, but I am a young, minority woman who has grown up in a small town in the Midwest, and I have never felt the kind of discrimination that you are describing. I was encouraged by some very good teachers, family, and friends, and it helped me become who I am. My town was a good home. I’ve been to NYC, and it’s very nice, but is nowhere near as warm and hospitable as my small town. I agree with Common Sense–you do seem a bit “elitist”. Perhaps if you stopped looking down on markets outside of NYC, you may have more success in finding a job.
Maria
“To the previous commenter, I am a recent graduate too, only a few years out from a T25 school, where i graduated towards the top of the class.”
Let’s be more specific. How many years out? When exactly did you graduate. I mentioned things are drastically different from even 10 years ago, but this holds true even if we are talking about ~3 years ago. At law schools ranked near my school (and your school), things were MUCH better for kids that could crack the top half of the class or so.
You also graduated at the top of your class and at a time when things were easier. You simply had/have an easier time (certainly earned I might add). Put yourself in my shoes and think how much more difficult things would be. Then put yourself in the shoes of the kids in the bottom half. Your particular situation is drastically different from mine and theirs.
I will repeat it again – you can’t climb the ladder if you can’t even get a foot on the first rung. Most law graduates TODAY cannot get that first job in order to gain meaningful legal experience. End.of.story. If people could at least get jobs with the possibility of working their way up, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Do you disagree that the majority of the class of 2010 cannot find meaningful legal employment that offers upward mobility within the profession and promising exit options?
You should be commended for your efforts, but I think there are some nastier schools you could have picked on,particularly Florida Coastal. Coastal has 2,500 students and is owned by a for-profit private equity group. These people make me sick. They are taking the federally subsidized student loan program, a program that had the noble ambition of making education and social mobility attainable to the lower classes, and perverting it into an opportunity to make huge profits saddling naive young people with insurmountable debts that can’t be discharged in bankruptcy in exchange for a useless degree. I agree that if the employment stats. were not so deceptive, a large number of people would forego law school.
As for me, I graduated from a T-2 law school in the mid west in the top-third of my class. Based on what my dean claimed was underrreporting of job placement by the previous graduating class, my school fell sharply in the rankings. The dean held a town hall to address our concerns about the lower ranking, and said that our school would now do what most other schools do: count any job, regardless if it is temporary or non-legal, as employed upon graduation to game the rankings. This dean, now the former dean, has since written articles in U.S. News encouraging everyone to attend law school.
After graduation, I took and passed a bar in a Southern state. Then I started applying for jobs, and I couldn’t get one to save my life. The legal market is such that even long time solo practitioners have started scrambling to find work with another firm. These ex-solos are now accepting low paying state jobs (39-45 plus benefits). This means that every firm, private and public, has figured out they can demand experience that a new law gradute cannot hope to offer.
Eventually, I got a job outside of law that did not require a J.D., but it took about two years.
My advice to struggling law graduates is to look into law enforcement and Federal Career Internship Positions (FCIP). You can market yourself to non-legal jobs, you just need to be well prepared to explain why you don’t want to practice and how the skills you learned in law school will allow you to succeed in that particular job. In other words, you need to do what career services should be doing on your behalf.
Dear A.S.,
Putting aside the horrible job market, I don’t think that you were misled; I think that you relied upon the wrong sources and have nobody to blame but yourself. I talked to enough practicing lawyers and law students before entering law school to know the following: (1) even in the best job market, attending a school below the top 15 or 20 and not graduating in the top three of your class would be the death knell as far a getting a job at any of the top firms in any major city; (2) hardly anyone gets a job for the summer between first and second year; (3) attending a regional non-elite school is not a smart move if you want to work in NY or DC or any other major city outside of your school’s state; (4) getting B’s and C’s in your first year of law school, at any school, significantly diminishes your chances at getting a good job, and continuing to get B’s and C’s practically guarantees that you will not get a good job; (5) using your law school’s curriculum as a reason for failing the bar exam is ridiculous; it was up to you to obtain the appropriate study materials for the state essay portion of the bar no matter what state bar you were taking and, if you had scored exceptionally high on the muti-state portion, it would not have taken much for you to get past the essay portion and pass the bar.
In addition, if you wanted the accurate information, not your school’s PR, all you had to do was research on Martindale and the individual law firm websites to find out whether the firms you were interested in had hired from your school or any other school in the same tier as your school.
I’m sorry A.S., but it sounds to me that you were naive and not a good enough student and might not have found the job you wanted even in a good job market.
That said: the pendulum always swings, and, if you keep looking and find a way to ride this out economically, you will eventually find a better job.
Thank you for your response. I would like to emphasis that everyone has different career paths, opportunities, and circumstances that influence their career choices. Also keep in mind that my focus is on reforming career counseling (i.e., the method for career planning and training) for current students and law school transparency for both current students and recent graduates. Regardless of the career choices that students/graduates have made, their law school has the ability to provide personal assistance to those students and/or help them redirect the direction of their careers and develop new professional goals (i.e., create candidate profiles and perform an assessment of professional skills, experience, and market evaluations).
Ethan
Ethan,
I think that you may be giving too much credit to the abilities of the typical law school placement/career counseling department, and that new hires and a change in focus would be necessary to offer the services you believe are the school’s obligations. Also, top law schools cringe at being viewed as vocational; their job is to give you the opportunity to become a valuable and successful member of the legal community…. not to help you get you a job. Many top law schools don’t even want to admit a student who has majored in any discipline in undergraduate school that is remotely vocational. That’s why they love applicants with esoteric majors.
Law students would be better served if part of their tuition (without raising tuition) covered job placement services offered by outside professionals operating in that field for at least 10 years; services such as resume writing, cover letter writing, real-time information about which firms and governmental agencies are hiring and honest assessments of opportunities based on a student’s full background (undergraduate school and work history and law school grades). Or, in lieu of that concept, offering students discounted placement services from outside firms. In this economic environment, outside firms would gladly discount their services.
Please eat.
I have a different perspective on this situation than most. I graduated in 1987 from a D.C. area law school, after having secured degrees from Brown and an international relations degree from Georgetown. I went to school at night, it took me four years of having no life, classes until 10, etc. I worked during the day as a legal assistant for a large union’s pension fund.
My goal was to work for the State Department in the Foreign Service. I took the exam twice, passed the written part with flying colors, but did not make it through the day of oral tests, interviews, etc. Bill Clinton had put a freeze on the Foreign Service.
I decided to move back to my native Boston. I secured work for an insurance company, still doing pension related work, but not as a lawyer. I took the Mass. bar and passed.
I met a wonderful woman, and wanting a life outside of law and work, I followed her on the trip of a lifetime to Latin America.
We returned after a year to a previous horrible recession – 1992. I registered with headhunters, sent out hundreds of resumes – nothing. No responses. I had gone to an out-of-state law school, not Harvard-BU-BC. Undergrad/grad school didn’t matter a bit. Luckily my law school had been a state school, so my debt burden wasn’t as bad as it could have been. It still took me until age 50 to pay it off.
I started working as a telemarketer just for some income and insurance, continuing to send out resumes here, to Florida, and all states in-between. Nobody was hiring lawyers, least of all from out of state. I encountered rudeness, nastiness, condescension, lack of communication or the decency of responses.
I started my own solo practice in Boston and did all sorts of cases. I had to educate myself on the minutiae of procedure – there were no mentors, little help out there. I volunteered for an organization assisting the aged and became adept at bankruptcy. I represented the Hispanic population in my city, before it became “trendy”, and polished my Spanish.
After about 12 years of struggling, clawing, searching for clients, using my imagination, facing the nastiness, competitiveness, destruction in this profession, I got out. I now teach Spanish in a high school, I have plenty of time for travel, seniority in my position – nobody threatens me with malpractice, and I can give my students detentions if they mouth off.
In summation: yes, this recession is worse, but past recessions have been brutal on lawyers; there are far too many lawyers and our media and society fail to report this – most people equate law with fabulous salaries and security; law schools do nothing to prepare you for the profession and do little to help you secure a job; the profession still operates in the dark ages – where you graduated from law school is of utmost importance and nothing else matters, not your skills, your experience, your intelligence, your passion.
I’m so glad I got out – any and all communications from my law school go straight in the trash. You can get out, too. Just because you went to law school doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other possibilities out there. Law is indeed a scam – keep your eyes open, and caveat emptor.
I read this after first seeing criticisms at Simple Justice and The Criminal Lawyer, and I have to say I agree with them. No sympathy here.
I just know what I read on Instapundit and your site, but I say “Go for it!”
Years ago I worked full-time and went to night law school at one of the schools on your list of ten. While they are now in the top 100, when I graduated they were not and I was in the bottom 10% of my class. Therefore, I did not even look for a legal position, although I passed the CA bar – 98% of our grads did on the first time then. Actually, since 138 started in my class and only 39 were graduated, my class ranking could have been spun, but…
With three kids and the usual debt load I chose to continue in my field (financial services) and went on the national headhunter market with my shiny new JD. JD’s weren’t such a glut on the market then and I did so well in getting job offers that I never looked back.
Anyway, I just looked at their web site and they claim that 89% of their 2008 grads are employed in legal positions. I emailed their communications director and pointed out the great opportunity to send this site a powerful message that they are properly informing applicants and encouraging them to sign on with those organizations who are encouraging telling the truth.
I intend to follow up with them if I don’t see such a reply to your challenge. If what they are telling people is true, I can see no reason for them not to refute these charges, in at least a short email if they don’t much respect your site.
To remain silent in the face of these charges…
I dont truly know what you talking about here. This cant be the only way to think about this can it? It seems like you know a great deal, so why not explore it more? Make it more accessible to everyone else who might not agree with you? Youd get a great deal a lot more people behind this should you just stopped making common statements.
It’s hard to get out of the legal field now though. People are looking for cookie cutter resumes and you really won’t get a chance for anything. Nobody really wants to roll the dice on a new hire or train anybody. The only jobs out there are sales jobs and telemarketer jobs, which I wouldn’t mind doing but most are scams as they require you to call your family and friends and essentially beg them to buy something they don’t need. If you need money that badly, your friends and family will lend it to you without any of it going to the company you’re working for, so to me that was out of the question.
Sure 1992 was bad for lawyers, but at least your education meant something and people would give you a shot at something else. I don’t think that is the case now. Since pretty much 2007 if you didn’t have connections or nail something before leaving school, you were in a very difficult position.
A lot of people refuse to admit how bad it is for recent graduates, and simply want to use their own experiences as a measure. Most people simply can not put themselves in somebody else’s shoes, they can’t empathize with their fellow man.
Some people are still doing fine. It just depends on where you want to draw the line. Do you want to see 90% of people do well? 75%? 50%? If you’re happy with a world where half your fellow human beings are screwed over, then there is no problem right now probably. If you instead prefer most people to have a real shot at a good life, you should have a problem.
2 of my best friends and I had a plan to go to law school and maybe eventually we would have our own firm back home in our small town. I became a super-senior and after that much time in school I knew I definitely needed a break and would not be immediately following them to law school. One graduated law school in 2007 & the other in 2008.
The friend graduating in 2007, through family connections, was able to join a 3-person firm in a very small town an hour away from our home town. He was paid hourly before passing the bar and he said with overtime he made more at that time than anytime since. He married, moved back home, and couldn’t find employment with any local firm. He found a full-time job working midnights and did that until he opened his own firm at the start of this year. He claims he isn’t doing well and that he would not be able to operate his firm without his wife’s income.
The friend that graduated in 2008 had no job prospects other than becoming a JAG, and that didn’t work out. His attempts to find a job in metropolitan areas were treated with disdain because of the size of the town he was from, and the regional university he attended as an undergrad and law student was 200 miles away from the nearest big city. Eventually, through a connection from church, he gained employment with a small firm in our small town. His income is around $35k.
My friends have been surprised to say the least about the availability of jobs in the legal profession, and the pay they have received in those professions. I don’t know the debt situation with the first friend, but the second did take on a lot of student loans and he doesn’t know if he wants to continue being a lawyer. He wants to see if anything changes in the next year before deciding to get out of the profession.
Interestingly, out of my group of college-educated friends, those that are doing the best work as operators for manufacturers. The pay is almost double, the benefits are better, and they don’t have $60k in student loans to repay from 3 years of law school.
I am right with you Ethan and the others who have posted their stories. I, too, was allured by the starting salaries published by my school. The tier 2 school that I attended in the south published the median starting salary of its graduates as $90K. Fewer than 10 students in my entire class had starting salaries at $90K or more. In fact, a very large percentage of my class was unemployed at graduation. These numbers are self-reported and only a small minority of students respond to employment queries sent out by the schools.
Law schools are no longer focused on their students and helping them achieve their career goals. Rather, the focus has shifted to bolstering their US News rankings so that schools can justify their tuition hikes every year. Law schools have become nothing more than cash cows.
The ABA is just as guilty as the schools that are publishing misleading stats to their prospective students. The ABA has failed in its duty to protect the integrity of the legal education system. Additionally, it has failed to control the growth of law schools. Today there are 200 ABA approved law schools, and there are not even close to enough jobs for all the graduates out there. When will the ABA step in and say enough is enough? When there are 250 schools? 300? 400? I know of no other professional program where so many graduates have trouble finding employment – not in medcine, dentistry, optometry, or any other professional field.
I have wasted 3 years of my life and tens of thousands of dollars. I was lied to by my school – plain and simple. And the ABA did nothing to prevent it. It’s been nearly a year since I passed the bar exam, and I am still unemployed. Through various contract jobs, I grossed a total of $25K last year. My life is effectively ruined, and I hope that not one more person has to go through what I did.
Things have not changed since I graduated in 1992.
My experience was that the law school I attended (top 5 ranked) was not concerned about helping me find a job or even being able to pay off my student loans.
The year after I graduated with a B- GPA I was still unemployed along with a few others from my section, yet I found that the law school claimed a 100% placement rate in one of that year’s publications!
I decided to call them and ask how this was possible. Given the people I knew from my section who were still looking for jobs, the law school could only have a 99% placement rate at best (assuming every other section had a 100% placement rate which I doubted).
They asked me what I had been doing the past year and I told them that I was waiting tables to save money to take the bar. They said, “so you have a job!” That is how they claimed their “100% placement” rate.
I give the same advice to young people considering law school. If your folks are rich and can pay for the whole thing, then it can be a good educational experience. If you get a full ride or major financial aid, then once again, take advantage of it. Otherwise, I would only go to law school if you have a very good (top 10) in-state law school where you can pay in-state tuition and can get out with less than 50k in debt. Otherwise, it is very doubtful that it will be worth it.
I came across this site (while browsing thirdtierreality.blogspot.com)and found these stories and comments very enlightening. I’ve wanted to go to law school since high school (00′ grad). Besides the massive amount of debt and long hours of study/minimal social life I know law school is not for the faint of heart. I went to a east coast public university for undergrad and studied pre-law/philosophy and later received my Master’s in Public Admin from a major Midwest university. The plan was to go straight to law school after undergrad but it didn’t happen that way. I currently have no debt/student loans from my degrees and now am contemplating finally tackling law school in the area of Public Policy. Obviously the 100k + salary wouldn’t apply to me in this area so I’m not impressed by those stats these LS give. I’m more so concerned about the debt issue. If I cannot get scholarships/stipends/grants,etc…I don’t think I’ll be going. I’ve heard too many stories like the ones here and it doesn’t seem worth it. It will be an act of God, as I know its rare to have LS %100 paid for with zero debt upon graduation. I believe if more people are able to go to LS with little to no debt, it may not be such a blow if things, ie jobs don’t fall into place as we have been trained to believe. Less of a gamble perhaps..
Life Long Dream,
If law school is what you want to do, do it. If you want to get into public policy and your eyes are wide open on earning potential, you can do law school on the cheap if you get a good LSAT score. Mine was 162, which I think is around the 83rd percentile or so. Nothing great, but good enough to be accepted into good, low dollar second tier state universities. I also got several full-tuition scholarship officers from tier 3 and tier 4 schools. None of the above are likley to land you at a Big Law firm, but you can go to a regional law school and land a legal job in public policy. That’s what I did, and my total law school debt at graduation (2009) was about $27K. It’s a good deal of money, but it’s not crushing.
The most important thing, IMO, if you want to get into public policy, is focus on that in law school, and attend a law school near where you want to live and work after graduation. If you are fine living in Little Rock, go to UALR. If you know you want to end up in Topeka, go to Washburn. If you do well enough on the LSAT, you can score some decent scholarships from these types of schools and work part time for state agencies during your second and third year of law school, setting you up with plenty of contacts. But that’s why it’s so important to go to school where you want to live after school, unless you get accepted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, or Columbia.
Good luck!
J.D. With Low Debt,
Thanks for the encouragement/advice. More stories like your’s need to be read by people like me. Not everyone is looking to be wealthy as a result of going to law school, but you want to at least be able to attain a quality education without feeling dupped/scammed and overwhelmed by debt. Thanks again, great advice.
Simple fact: there are too many for too few resources.